Lisa Mateo opens up about “what happened” to her and how others aren’t alone
Emmy award-nominated journalist Lisa Mateo embodies the word “versatile.” The mom of two reported every type of news there is in NYC, from reporting traffic from the chopper, to hard news, to weather, to hosting a show with celebrity tastemakers – before setting off for the national stage. She’s done radio, TV, public speaking, fitness coaching, and now covers business news for Bloomberg.
Content warning: In addition to a lot of laughing, there’s some crying, a lot of inspirational moments, and mentions of childhood neglect and abuse.
Lisa shares how leaving PIX 11 was the push she needed to give her life-changing Tedx talk. Her motto – “why not?” – helped create new opportunities and expand her skills again and again.
Sh*t I Wish I Knew In My Twenties (SIWIKIMT) is a podcast dedicated to helping 20-somethings thrive in their twenties, not just survive.
Host Debra Alfarone knows how tough being in your twenties can be. As a high-school dropout turned-network-TV-correspondent, she learned most of life’s lessons the hard way. She overcame the odds and now covers the White House for CBS News nationally. She’s also a confidence coach for young women in the TV news industry.
Lisa Mateo: It’s a little crazy, but I knew it was a shot. And I knew it was a shot that I had to take.
Debra Alfarone: Thank you for listening to BEEP I wish I knew in my 20s, the podcast hosted by me, a former high school dropout turned network TV correspondent who had no mentors, nobody, no big sister, you name it, no one to show her the way. So now that I got my life together, which is debatable. I want to pour into you and make my guest Lisa Mateo laugh.
She’s an Emmy award-nominated journalist. She does TV, radio, speaking, fitness. She had her own show where she was sitting around a table eating and talking about food with celebrities. I mean, she does everything, she covers breaking news, Wall Street, entertainment. Lisa, is there anything that you don’t do?
Lisa Mateo: I don’t know. What’s next? I’m like, I don’t know. I kind of just throw stuff up and see what works. And every time someone says, are you up for this? Why not? Say why not?
Debra Alfarone Well, that might be the lesson. the best lesson. I think we’re getting our lesson real early in this episode.
Lisa Mateo: Twenty-somethings, the whole thing is exactly that. Like, did I ever think that my first on-air gig would be in a helicopter reporting traffic? It was a little weird. It was weird. You know, you’re how many 1000s of feet in the air. It’s a little crazy. But I knew it was a shot. And I knew it’s a shot that I had to take. Because it’s what I wanted to do. And it prepped me, you never realize all those little places where you start, how much you learn. You may think it’s insignificant at the time. But I learned everything, from breaking news, how to describe a story that you know nothing about because you just got there and you’re just kind of describing what happened on the scene. All those little details. Just learning the nuances, the ins and out of New York City, every road, everywhere. I mean, I knew where everything was, every neighborhood. I saw the sunrise over the city every morning. I mean, it was just amazing. And from there, you just keep going. I mean, I did traffic, I did weather, news reporting, I did features. Because of that traffic position, someone saw me, liked my smile and my presence. And they wanted me to host their show, Celebrity Tastemakers and it was amazing, an amazing group of people. And just those opportunities. You never know where they’re going to pop up. So whatever role you’re in, shine.
Debra Alfarone: Great advice. So what we’re talking about is your time at PIX 11. And that’s where we met. But we became much closer after we both left PIX 11. And so you were there for 19 years. Were you even 20 when you started there? Were you in your early 20s?
Lisa Mateo: I was in my late 20s. I was in my late 20s.
Debra Alfarone What did you start out there as, that hat you ended up you know, ascending and doing all these different things?
Lisa Mateo: Yeah, I was always print, like, I just loved writing. I was in my room writing for my high school newspaper. But for my college newspaper, I had an internship at a newspaper. My first job was at a newspaper. And that’s what sparked it, I was at a fire and I was like, you know what, I want to report this live, I’m gonna go back and I want to tell people now because this is where the action is happening. And that’s kind of where that spark, you know, came.
I did magazines too. And then I finally made that transition to news. There was, it was a seminar that was happening at Channel 11. It was something new that they were doing, and you had to apply for it. So I did and it was just an overall view, everything from sales to marketing to news so it was a whole overall view of the entire station and how things worked, which was great for me, because I didn’t know, you know, those little ins and outs. And right after that finished, they were hiring for a brand new morning show. So I left my job, I took a pay cut. I started back at the bottom as a production assistant. And I just kind of worked my way up from there.
Debra Alfarone: So you said you just took a pay cut, you had to work your way up? How did you know that was the right thing?
Lisa Mateo: I didn’t want to regret a decision and always say “what if,” you know, because I knew it’s something that I wanted to do. And I was like, why not? I’m young, like this is the time to do it. And you know what, even when I’m older, I’m still doing it!
Debra Alfarone: Yeah, no, you’re you are perennially 20 years old!
Lisa Mateo: I didn’t want to ever regret that and say what if, you know, if I didn’t take that because they were offering, they were offering me different, you know, opportunities and incentives to stay at the job that I was in and I kept saying, no, no, I’m gonna do this and it was the best decision I ever made.
Debra Alfarone: You bet on yourself. You did everything, literally everything while you were there. You were there for 19 years, let’s talk about a couple of the highlights, the things that you did, I know you went to Puerto Rico, I know you were in the chopper, you reported so many stories, take us through just a couple of things. Because I don’t think people realize, because I’ll tell you, when I worked there, you know, for only a couple of years, shockingly, for two years, as a news reporter, I’d be out in the van in a random neighborhood, and people would go, “is Lisa Mateo in there?” You know, like, we’re not driving the van around with her like, in the back, like, we don’t take her everywhere, she has days off?
Lisa Mateo: You really hit the nail on the head with that, when you’re at a station, if you’re new to a community, you have to become a part of it, you have to gain that trust in the people, you have to, I mean, granted, I’m from New York City, I was born in Brooklyn, you know, but you have to be a part of it, you know, when you’re out reporting on a story, to the people over there, don’t just, you know, sit in your car and just doodly doo, like, actually get involved, go to the stores, go to the restaurants where they eat, find out and talk to the, you know, everybody, so you get a real feel of the community, so that you learn, you know, how they work, the ins and outs of the city, I mean, you have to know that especially in this market, where people are traveling from, you know, market one to market 50 to market six, you know, you’re all over the place.
I mean, granted, I was lucky enough to be able to stay in New York City. But that’s, that’s very rare. And you’re usually moving around. And so if you’re moving around, you need to know your community. And I think that’s a big part of it, you have to speak authentically, and I always said that, you know, this is how I am and this is how I talk and this is how it’s gonna be and, and, you know, granted, there’s differences, you know, between breaking news and this, but you’re still…like you’re being authentically yourself at the same time, like, you’re just how we’re talking right now. That’s how I would tell a story, you know, like, we’re just kind of talking like this. But I think it’s just the crazy things that I was willing to do like from features, you know, I’m swimming with sharks, I’m in the globe of death with motorcycles racing around me…roller coasters, waterslides, all on live TV. This is incredible. Incredible. But I had such a fun time doing it. Because I think people seeing me do that was just their way to be like, Damn, she’s a really cool gal.
Debra Alfarone: People love you. I mean, even you know, later on when you left, I’d be at you know, whatever, like taco place or burrito joint with you. And they’d be like, “Lisa Mateo, here, have some more chips!” And hanging out with you is really cool in New York, because everybody knows you.
Lisa Mateo: Because I just loved it. And you know what? Here’s the difference. When people see you on the street, they want to take pictures, they want to do everything. And they’re actually surprised that I’m like, “yeah, let me grab your camera, like, come on, let’s go,” you know, they’re like, “Wow, you really are like you are on TV.” Well, that’s how it should be. You really should be, ‘how are you?” Aren’t you like how you are in real life? You know, and it’s a weird concept. But it’s the truth. You have to be. And so, yeah, I took those features, weather, and the most amazing part of it, the highlight of my career was like you said when I went to Puerto Rico and that was something that I had to fight for, and something that I believed in, and something that I went in with a plan.
If you want something and you believe in it, and you want to go for it, you have to go in with a plan. You know, I went into my boss’s office, they weren’t so hot at first, you know, but I said, we need to go back to the island, we’ve been there when the hurricane hit, when Hurricane Maria hit, we need to go back and do a follow-up story. And so it was going back and coming back to her again with a plan saying, “Hey, I talked to the Red Cross, here’s what we’re gonna do. Monday, we’re gonna do this, Tuesday, we’re gonna do this, Wednesday, we’re going to this place, this place, this place, this school, this community, I got this person. You go in and you lay it out for them on a silver platter. All the work is done, just send me over there with a photographer. And they were nice enough to send a producer as well, who was amazing. It was such an amazing team. But it was more personal for me because I’m from the island. And I grew up seeing the beauty of it. And to see how it was just taken apart was emotional. It was an emotional time. But being able to come back and tell those stories of resilience was the most important part for me.
Debra Alfarone: I think there’s so many lessons in that story. You know, you can get a no. And then you go back again. And you go back again. But you really do have to do your homework. When you’re asking someone for something, you have to have the plan laid out, not just “hey, this is a good story.” And by the way, you know the people who listen to this podcast, a lot of them are journalists, not everyone, but no matter what you do, you gotta pitch a story, whether you’re pitching yourself or you’re pitching a story that you cover, and you’ve got to have the elements to say we’re going to do that, then we’re going to do this, we’re going to come up with six unique stories that nobody else has. And they can air the next week.
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Debra: Now after 19 years, at PIX you left and I know, it’s tough to leave something that you were at. So talk us through how you left and how you felt about leaving and why you made that decision.
Lisa Mateo: It was a very difficult decision. But you just get to that point in your career. I had done, you know, something that fulfilled me, you know that half-hour special, it turned into a half-hour special actually for Puerto Rico. And I said, okay, you know, now what, what’s next for me? Do I stay here? And I didn’t feel it. You know, after so many years, I didn’t feel it.
And then when you start to feel unappreciated, you know, different things start to fill up these emotions in you. And you start to second guess yourself, and you just say, well, I guess this is it for me, you know, but it’s not. It’s not, that’s not the end, there was always something else, you know, there’s always something more, and don’t sit and stay, you know, and settle.
Because you deserve more than that. And it was hard for me to say that, you know. I grew up, you know, with a different kind of childhood. You know, I went through a traumatic experience as a child and I talked about it in my TEDx Talk. And, that really affected my mentality because I thought I wasn’t worth it. I thought I didn’t deserve more than that. But, you know, through different things through therapy, I mean, gosh, get some help if you have to, for sure. But by doing that, and finally realizing that I did deserve it gave me the courage. You know, I remember one of my photographers sitting with me in the truck, and I was just just beat down, you know, you get to a point at certain places where you’re just beat down, and you don’t feel like yourself. You don’t act like yourself anymore. I’ve been there. I’ve been there, and he just turned to me and he said, “well, just go” and I said, “well, I can’t, I got a family,” and he goes, “You’re good. You’re gonna get picked up and you’re gonna, you’re going places” he’s like, so “don’t you worry.” I never thought about it that way. And that kind of put that spark into me. And I did and it was the hardest thing because you leave and that’s what you’re known as, you know, that’s, that’s kind of like your persona. People know you like, “Oh, Lisa from PIX 11. Hey, you’re Lisa from PIX 11, Lisa PIX 11”. And I’m grateful for it because it gave me that platform. But at the same time when you leave these thoughts go through your head, like “Well, who am I now?”
You know, I took some time off to myself to just answer that question for myself. You know, I really did. And that was the best thing. Just taking that time, I was lucky enough to be able to do that. And then, you know, CBS called and I was able to take my talent to a national level. And then you know, COVID happened and things started changing at CBS and I was able to switch to radio, I was actually working for CBS and I Heart at the same time because I can’t sit still, I hope to work at different things. But I Heart gave me that ability to learn radio and to really, really dig deep into it. And so when I Heart offered me a full-time job, CBS said hey, you know what? We have radio, why don’t you come here?
And I was like, Oh, I didn’t even think about that. It didn’t cross my mind. So I wound up staying at home, you know, during COVID when my daughter needed me because she was homeschooled, everybody was homeschooled. And it just worked. I was able to work from here and then, uh, you know, two years later, and it was Bloomberg. Bloomberg gave me a call and said “Hey, you ready to come back to the city?” You know, we have some opportunities here for you to report business news….Never thought about it. But why not? Why not? And it was just something new and exciting. And I never thought this would keep happening. And you know, I’m nearing 50. Probably,
Debra Alfarone: And I know how it feels when you’re at a place that you think you should stay at, that you think that this is my identity, you know, I’m here. And you think, well, that’s it for me, maybe I need to leave, and then I don’t know what I’m going to do. And meanwhile, your career and my career both took off to a national level, you just never know what the universe has in store for you. But you got to leave and close the door on a situation that doesn’t serve you.
Lisa Mateo: It doesn’t end, it’s so hard. I’m not gonna say it’s easy to be like, oh, no, pick up, peace out. I’m out. No, it’s difficult, and you need time to just kind of sit back and deal with those emotions. It’s, it’s tough.
Debra Alfarone:I wonder, though, if you would have done your TEDx talk, had you stayed at PIX?
Lisa Mateo: You know, I thought about that, too. I don’t think I would have really, I really don’t think I would have because leaving is what gave me the courage. Leaving is what turned me into a more powerful person inside, leaving is what helped me deal with the past. That became a TEDx talk, you know, leaving is what turned everything for me. So no, I don’t think, I really don’t think I would have. I don’t. It’s deep. It’s powerful.
Debra: And I want to talk about your TEDx talk, because it was not easy for you to give. And you had hinted earlier that you had a traumatic experience as a child, and I just want to give you a platform to kind of share a little bit of that as much as you will. Because I feel like, people don’t know, everything looks rosy and perfect when you’re at Bloomberg Radio, and you’re at CBS News, and you’re doing a podcast, and really, we’ve all got some stuff.
Lisa: Yeah, we do. And, it’s hard. And I think the reason I did it was because of a lot of the judgment that I faced growing up, you know, different labels that were put upon me because of how I acted, how I acted in certain situations, things that happened to me, you know, and people didn’t understand. And the question that I give to people is, well, what if you change your thought process, instead of slapping some label on someone in saying, Oh, they’re just a this or they’re just a that or they’re a slut or they’re, you know, a snob or they’re this, maybe you stop and you ask what happened to them because a lot of how people react in life has a lot to do about what happened to them in life.
And you will never understand that unless you think that way. You know, and it’s tough, especially in a business like this where we select labels left and right, you know, I have to say, I’m guilty of it, you know, like, sometimes you do that. But if you just change your thought process, which I’m starting to do, it changes the whole mentality of everything, you know, and the reason I came out with it is because there are so many people out there, so many young girls, so many young boys, who are abused as kids, and they feel like they can’t come out and talk about it. But you can, you can go to somebody, there are counselors at school, if you feel like you can’t go to your parents, which I felt like at the time, then you can go to somebody else, you know, there’s, there’s someone there for you, there’s so many platforms that you can go to, some safe platforms.
But the whole point of it was just to get a conversation going because a lot of people were listening, who responded to me and said, “You know what, that was me. And I never said anything until now.” So the fight is deep. And too, even if it’s just one person, you know that got that message. You know, I got so many DMs on social media like support, and it was just beautiful because I always felt alone. And I didn’t have to, you don’t have to feel that way. You don’t have to feel alone. You don’t have to feel scared. There’s people, there’s places you can go for help. And that I think is going to be my next step. Like to find an organization heck, maybe even start one, you know, who can help young girls and boys and help them with that confidence and help them understand that it’s not their fault, you know, and that’s the biggest thing we always think it’s our fault, you know? It is not, it’s not our fault.
Debra Alfarone: I think many people are broken in some way.
Lisa Mateo: You know, it doesn’t have to be that extraneous but any kind of trauma, you know, it’s something that you have to deal with. And it’s funny because like I said, a lot of people who were reaching out to me were older women, you know, women my age who never said anything, you know, and for them to hear it, it was so helpful and so comforting, you know, at the same time to realize that someone like me, who I don’t know what that means, but that’s what they say, you know, “someone like you went through something like this.”
Debra: You know, I think they mean someone like you with perfect hair, and guns. And you know, you don’t have a problem in your life. They know everything’s perfect for you. Life’s been wonderful. You’re on TV, everything’s great. Goodbye. And you’re just a human out here, humaning. Yeah. And things happen to all of us. And I’m so sorry, that that happened to you. I mean, from the bottom of my heart, because you are just a wonderful angel of human who I just love so much. I really do. I’m so thankful to be in your presence. I just, I see myself in you. And I feel seen when I talk to you, shit, I’m crying. This is shit that I didn’t want to do. This is not shit that I knew in my 20s… Oh, wow. You know, okay, so this podcast has taken a turn into like therapy land. But I will say that I am reading this book right now. It’s called, I’m gonna butcher the title. It’s not here. It’s downstairs. It’s called adult children of emotionally immature parents. And I thought, what does that mean? Exactly.
There are attachment styles, which you learn about, you know, as you dig a little deeper into therapy, and I’ve been to therapy, put my hand in the air, I’ve done all the things. So and I think there’s nothing wrong with it. In fact, I think there’s something very right with it. So with that being said, you know, I never had an attachment to my mom. I just, she just was a colder, or I don’t know that she was cold. She just did not give me that love, or let me know, she was not emotionally available. And as a result, I suffered from that, I’m not emotionally available at times, to certain people. And I know I learn that from my mom. And when I did have emotions, well, you know, then there’s something wrong with you, go handle that yourself. So and then you grow up with that. And so I’m just throwing that out there.
Because if you’re someone like me, who has dealt with that, just know, you’re okay. Okay, you are okay. And it’s not that there’s something wrong with you, there’s something wrong with them. By them I mean, your parents, and by the way, they learned that from somewhere, too. So no judgment, I think it’s all about not judging and just looking, just doing the looking.
Lisa Mateo: They were doing the best they could with what they had at the time. Yeah, and it’s hard, there was a lot of anger and things like that. But that’s what it helped me realize, you know, and it was that, you know, what happened to them.
Debra Alfarone: I want to talk to you about some beep you wish you knew in your 20s Let’s do this, tell me some stuff you wish you knew back then.
Lisa Mateo: One was, go for it. Like take whatever opportunity comes, you got to run with it and go with it. We covered that one. Another thing I wish I knew, too, is you know, I just thought about this. Write down all your accomplishments and all the things that you’re proud of, all the extra stuff you do, because there’s this thing called a review. Throughout your career, whether you’re in news, whether you’re in any business, there is always a review process. And you know, the time comes and you’re sitting there going, so what did I do? Keep track of all this stuff. I’m telling you keep a journal, every time you do an extra assignment, every time you go….offer help to somebody, mentor, somebody, anytime you do anything like that at this station, or wherever you are, whatever job you have, whatever good you do, write it down. Just write it down, write down all your good things, not just so you have it for your review. But for those days, when you’re somewhere and you’re down in the dumps and you’re stepped on. You just take out that little journal and you say, let me let me go through this again.
Debra Alfarone: That’s actually something I tell my clients, my coaching clients to do at the end of the year, take an assessment and look at what you did and there’s ways that you can do it too if you forgot to write it down. A couple of ways I do it is by looking at all those pictures in my phone and screenshots too, you’re like, oh, yeah, that’s right. I did do that thing. Okay, gotcha. Or my sent emails, or my calendar. Now I know it takes time to do this. And it’s the best time you will spend because you get a review of your year. And you get to see what goals you made, which ones you reached, which ones you didn’t. And even better, why you didn’t reach those. Oh, that’s right. I didn’t do that. Because I didn’t do this. It’s on me or because whatever this happened, so you can look into those things and then make your plans for the next year.
Lisa Mateo: Now that’s true. That’s true. I’m telling you, it helps out so much that so many times I wish I had done that, because it’s time rolls around and you’re like, I don’t remember why now.
Debra Alfarone: Please, think about what we did today. What did you do today? Let’s take an inventory of our day. What accomplishments do you have today? At least I’m sure you did like 50 things!
Lisa Mateo: I did lives for all my affiliates. Knock them all out now, I worked on two weekend pieces. I was done for the day. I was fried. I’ve been going since two o’clock this morning.
Debra Alfarone: Did you work out yet today?
Lisa Mateo: That’s what I’m doing after this podcast interview.
Debra Alfarone:..I’m sure you meal prep and you did some great stuff for your family.
Lisa Mateo: Yeah, that does come later I have alarm set on my phone. That’s the only thing I have alarm set. You know, like half an hour before I’m supposed to go to bed. I had that alarm set. So that means Lisa, pack your meals. Lisa, take a shower. Get yourself together. You get distracted? You know it is? Sounds like you might have read atomic habits that’s on my list. Yeah.
Debra Alfarone: That’s a good one. Put that one on the list. That way, I have my daily habit list over there of the things that I need to do. And one of them is at eight o’clock, put the phone down 8pm. I let myself have until 8pm, because let’s be real. I run a business.
Lisa Mateo: I’m a journalist. Come on. Gotta keep on top of things. But yeah, after a certain time, it’s true. Because you have to, you have to let it settle down. You do.
Debra Alfarone: I think we could do a whole podcast episode about that book. Okay. Okay, if you could go back and give your 20-year-old self some piece of advice, one piece of advice, what would it be?
Lisa Mateo: Take better care of your health. Take better care of your mental health, your physical health, especially when you have demanding jobs, crazy hours, all over the place. It’s so important, I never would have survived 19 years on a shift waking up at 2am every morning, if I did not have that together.
You know, even if it’s just moving, just do something to move your body every day. And I know you’re tired. And I know, you know, you’re stressed out. But that is such a stress reliever to just be like, you know what, I’m going out for a walk, like screw this, I’m going for a walk, get some air, just go out and move your body, you know, mentally, you know, you got to stay on how on top of it too, we talk so much about that.
Those two things, your mental health and your physical health are super important. If you want to survive, especially crazy schedules in this crazy business that is, or any job, like it’s super important to keep your energy level up. When your energy levels up, you perform so much better, you know, and then I learned you know, and I’ve changed the way I workout I used to do some crazy stuff. Now that I’m older, my joints are a little crazy. I’ve toned it down a little, I do low impact. And that’s why I created a program Fitness Forward, because it helps with that. You know, you don’t have to do all these crazy things. You can do simple moves, that will help your body and help you get stronger because you need to.
You don’t realize like just simple things going up and down the stairs, you know can help out, you know, if you are strong and you have great balance…. I can’t tell you what a difference it made. You know, for me going out in the field always having my, I was very good. I had my little things packed and photographers would always laugh at me, but I was like. “suckers. who’s feeling good right now?”
Debra Alfarone: Fred and his corn muffins.
Lisa Mateo: Man, Fred could find a corn muffin in every borough. Oh, but yeah, it just it keeps you going. It keeps you, you know, just vibrant. It keeps that energy going. People always say at least how can we have so much energy because I take care of myself.
Debra Alfarone: It has to be the priority before everything else and I tried to do that. Sometimes really good and sometimes not so good.
Lisa Mateo: Yeah, try your best you know, and you try to make it a habit where you just remember to do it at night before you wake up and everything’s good but it’s just about moving your body like I see you going on your walks, doing your yoga, you’re doing your thing, you know, because we have to if we want to feel better about ourselves, got to do it.
Debra: Okay, this brings me to my last question. Tell us about a worst job, a worst outfit or a worst date from your 20s. Something that could be a Friend’s episode or something that you just wish never happened? Of course, just tell the world!
Lisa Mateo: Oh, yes, yes, yes. The weirdest thing I had, like blondish kind of highlights that I started doing… I remember looking at old clips, like, wow, it really was odd. I don’t remember. I don’t remember that either. Um, worst job? Well, it was an internship that I learned from because I guess I was fired.
Debra Alfarone: The woman who has done everything who was in demand, got fired. I do not believe this.
Lisa Mateo: Because I was working, you know, you’re an intern you’re doing different things? My role time was obituaries. And I was like, “Why do I gotta do this? I want the rails that you know, I’m in my 20s You see my mentality back then? Why do I gotta do this? It’s a waste of my time. I don’t need to do this. Let me just do this real quick.” Turns out, I ended up writing the wrong information on the person, that family got really pissed off, which I totally get. And that was a huge no-no, because I didn’t appreciate the job that I had at the time. And I didn’t take it for what it was worth. So yes, I probably did get fired. But I learned a ton from that experience.
Debra Alfarone: And that my friend is somme beep you wish you knew in your 20s Lisa Mateo, thank you for being on the podcast today. We love you.
Lisa Mateo: And thank you for doing this. You know, thank you for having this podcast is a platform where people can come to because we didn’t have it, you know, we didn’t have this community and sometimes you feel alone. Sometimes you’re in a new city and you don’t know any, you know, and this is the perfect place to come to, to have that community to have that camaraderie. You know, it’s, it’s just perfect. So thank you for having me.
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Debra Alfarone: Make sure you hit subscribe. If you haven’t already, tell a friend, leave a review. Come on, we need you and it helps us more than you know. You can also watch portions of this interview on YouTube. So follow us on Instagram and Tiktok at @Debra Alfarone for more Shit I wish I Knew in my Twenties. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.