Denise Dudley Has Trained 12 Million Leaders - The Behavioral Psychologist Shares How to Hack Your Career

Denise is a professional trainer and keynote speaker, author, business consultant, and founder and former CEO of SkillPath Seminars, the largest public training company in the world. Denise holds a Ph.D. in behavioral psychology, a hospital administrator's license, a preceptor for administrators-in-training license, and is licensed to provide training to medical professionals in the United States and Canada.

She's also a certified AIDS educator, a licensed field therapist for individuals with agoraphobia, and a regularly featured speaker on college campuses across the US. Denise speaks all over the world on a variety of topics, including management and supervision, leadership, assertiveness, communication, personal relationships, and career readiness. Her latest book, “Work it! Get In, Get Noticed, Get Promoted,” currently in its third printing, is available on Amazon.com.

Denise shares her top career tips for 20-somethings, including the science behind fake-it-til-you-make-it, why you should never skip personalizing a cover letter, and her personal invite for David Byrne.

Sh*t I Wish I Knew In My Twenties (SIWIKIMT) is a podcast dedicated to helping 20-somethings thrive in their twenties, not just survive.

Host Debra Alfarone knows how tough being in your twenties can be. As a high-school dropout turned-network-TV-correspondent, she learned most of life’s lessons the hard way. She overcame the odds and is now a national anchor and correspondent for Gray Television, after covering the White House for CBS News nationally. She’s also a confidence coach for young women in the TV news industry.

Connect with Denise on IG at @contactdenisedudley and buy her book, “Work it! Get In, Get Noticed, Get Promoted” on Amazon.com

Transcript:

Debra Alfarone:

Thanks for listening to BEEP I wish I knew in my twenties. This is the podcast hosted by me, a former high school dropout turned network TV correspondent. Now that I have figured some things out, I want to pour into you and help you not just survive, but thrive in your 20s. And I've got some amazing friends. That brings me to today's guest. Let's talk about work. Okay, making the most of work getting ahead, creating your dream career. Yeah, that's why we brought out the big guns today. Okay. Denise Dudley, she's the author of the book that every 20-something should read.

You're a behavioral psychologist, a professional speaker, the founder of SkillPath Seminars, you've taught 12 million people, you've trained millions of people, the most common way people give up their power is by believing they don't have any. That's from Alice Walker, what do you think of that quote?

Denise Dudley:

I think it's absolutely true. For one thing, I believe that our power comes from inside. And that before we can really project any particular type of power, we've got to buy into it ourselves. Now, there is such a thing as fake it till you make it. And that's real, by the way. And I can go into a lot of behavioral reasons why that's true. Our brains really are listening and watching what it is we're thinking and doing. Our brains are monitoring us as we are behaving. So sometimes we can do things, lots of great research on this, and I'm gonna get off track.

But, for instance, a quick little research project that turned out to be very interesting was taking shy people, putting them into meetings, and asking them to do nothing more than spread out, make your body bigger. That's all they were asked to do. And then they were askedblater, after the meeting, how did you feel in the meeting more powerful, more powerful by spreading out just a small bit. So it's just a bit of a research project that says, yes, our bodies and our brains are listening to one another. And so sometimes the fake it till you make it will help you to become more powerful feeling. But really, ultimately, we've got to feed it to the inside. And make sure that from our very core, we believe in ourselves, and that we can project beauty and truth and power and intelligence out there into the world.

Debra Alfarone:

I'm so glad you brought up fake it till you make it. Because I'm a little bit in both camps on that. Fake it till you make it sounds kind of like I'm faking it, there's kind of an element of maybe I shouldn't be doing that. Maybe I should just make it. But you're saying that these little things can actually create us in a more powerful way, by the way we stand or sit? Or show up? Physically glue?

Denise Dudley:

Absolutely, yes, yes. And in fact, when I teach people, a lot of individuals, in fact, let's just take somebody who really doesn't make great eye contact, has trouble with eye contact, some people really have trouble looking directly into the eyes of another person. For other people who are listening to this podcast today or watching it, they're thinking, how could you have trouble with that? Oh, yeah, people have trouble with it. So we start and we talk about something. This is called successive approximations. It's a technical term, but it really means that I'm going to take little tiny steps that will eventually make up the thing I want to do down the road. So if you can't quite make eye contact with me, I ask for you to make a flicker of eye contact, and then look away and take a deep breath. Try it again. So as we work toward these small behaviors, that all will eventually look like I am an assertive, powerful, confident, comfortable person. We take tiny little baby steps, we piece them together until we've got the image that we want to project.

Debra Alfarone: 

Your book, “Work it get in get noticed get promoted.” It's in his third printing, how did your life bring you to this being your life's work - helping people be powerful to create their careers and what they want in their lives?

Denise Dudley:

That book specifically I wrote, because I've been working a lot on college campuses, colleges and universities talking about what we call career readiness right now. It's kind of a hot topic on campuses. If anybody's out there listening to this, and they have any influence over a college, make sure that career readiness gets included in the curriculum, because it often isn't, I wrote, Work It because after I would do these talks to audiences, a lot of times people would ask me for a resource. Like, I want to keep thinking about this, learning about this. And with all respect, and I'm not trying to diss other books, but with all respect to every book that's ever been written. there just weren't any really good ones out there. There was one that was written that was very academic, written literally, by academics about academia, but not friendly. Like hey, how are you going to get a job? Hey, let's talk about your passion. Hey, let's talk about how you present in a job interview. So I wrote Work It because I didn't think there was a resource out there like that. And happily, I'm glad to tell you that it's being used as a textbook and a lot of career readiness places. And so yeah, it's a book that I wrote out of love 100%. And I do mean this 100% of my revenue, I give back to educational programs for youth. So it's not a thing I did to make money at all.

Debra Alfarone:

People may be listening who are in their 20s, maybe they're in college, maybe they're in their 30s or 40s. Hey, you got to learn this stuff at some point. I mean, I know that when I was in college, career readiness, I didn't even know how to spell career readiness. That was not anything they were teaching, how do we go about our lives and interview for the jobs we want? How do we even get the interview? How do we stand out to get the interview? And if you can give us maybe a couple of tips on once you're in the interview? How do you make the hiring person go? Oh, yeah, no, I gotta have that person on my team.

Denise Dudley:

Interviewing. That means you've already made it in a way, if you go to an interview, it means that they sorted through all the resumes and cover letters, and there could be 1000s that come in for a job depending on where you're interviewing, if you're interviewing at Microsoft, or at Apple, you are going to be in competition with many, many, many people. If you're interviewing for a smaller office and accounting firm that's got 12 people in it. It's a different story. But generally speaking, if you make it to someone not throwing your resume in the trash, you got somewhere.

Before you get to the interview, you got to do what it takes - resume one page, especially if you don't if you were a research scientist, and you won the Nobel Peace Prize or something, you might have a larger than one-page resume, but most of us one page, always with a cover letter, always with a cover letter that is personalized and individualized to the job you're applying for.

Now, I know if your audience is listening, they're going oh, that means I have to keep changing the letter and whatever. Yeah, you do. You actually do get noticed that way by being personal. Have a resume that is literally error-free, literally error-free, with no typos, no wonky spacing in it. We say that the best color is black print on white or slightly off-white. Sometimes people think well, if I send an electric orange resume in, it'll stand out, but it kind of stands out in the wrong way. Then somebody calls you, you go in for the interview on the big day, when you're going to get interviewed, you make sure that you show up 10 minutes early is actually on time. Oh, yeah, yes.

10 minutes early is on time, an hour early is not on time, and you could run the risk of irritating people, because now they don't know where to put you. So you make sure that you're 10 minutes early, that you look appropriate to the job, do your research ahead of time, you want to be the person who fits already, if you're going into a job interview, the hiring manager needs to believe that they are not going to make a mistake. So here are two people who have a goal, the goal is to fill a position, I want to fill the position, you as the hiring manager need to fill the position, we could have a match. So I do everything I possibly can to look and behave and talk like the person who is the match you want. You want to look like you fit.

How do you do it? Do your homework ahead of time. Is this a chic hip place where you need to walk in with your big earrings? Is this a conservative company where you really need to wear your navy blue, and be a little bit more like low key? Do what it takes to look like you already have the job in the company that you're applying for. Everything counts, everything counts. So if I were again, pretend I'm the hiring manager, and I have to figure out who the heck I'm going to hire. So a typo is going to make me think, Oh, well, you're not paying attention to detail, or you don't care enough to have proved it or you don't know the rules. So I'm going to be making a judgment if I find that and I need to. it's my job.

Debra Alfarone:

What do you say? When someone says, Tell me about your worst trait? You know what, what's, uh, you know, tell me about some good things that you do. But then tell me what the worst thing about you, come on. Like, is there any appropriate answer? I never know what to say to anyone.

Denise Dudley:

I am about to tell you a big secret. So I am and so hopefully all of your listeners in the world will know this and then everyone will do it. And then maybe after a while, it really won't work any longer. But this is what we suggest. First of all, it doesn't work to say, Oh, I actually don't have any things that aren't perfect about me. Because that's not true first of all, and it also is just gonna be like no one wants to hear that.

Here's another one that doesn't work. Well, my problem is, the biggest drawback about me is that I just don't have anything wrong. I just don't even know that doesn't work. Perfect. I'm too perfect. So two suggestions. One is you make sure that you pick something that you're not good at, we’ll say, that is absolutely not related to the job you're applying for - just not even remotely related. Because at that point, if you were, we'll say, you're applying for a job to input data, well, then heck, it's going to be alright, if you're not the best at making presentations, because it won't really matter, right? Not going to be asked to do that.

So you think of a thing that can't possibly be related to the job you're applying for. And then if that just doesn't work, because it's a job where you can't think of something like that. Most people will accept the idea. And you just say that you're working on this or you're getting better at it. Public speaking, fear of public speaking, almost everyone has it. And unless you're applying to become a presenter or a public, don't do that, or a newscaster, don't. But if it's a job where public speaking isn't part of it, then what we suggest you say is use the public speaking thing, because everyone relates to it.

I have to get up and make a speech. Boy, sometimes I feel a little bit nervous. But I am working on it. And it's something that I really would like to overcome. So you move right into, I'd like to make a change.

Debra Alfarone:

Let's say you're there in the interview, and you think you're doing okay, they say to you, any questions? Do you have any questions? What are the right questions?

Denise Dudley:

We don't ask questions that are selfish. Like, how much is this going to pay me? We also don't ask, like, how much time do I get off? Those things that you do want to know, later when you make your decision. But that's not what to ask. So you ask a question that, first of all, is selfless. That doesn't, it's not just all about me, it could be about how my job interfaces with the rest of the departments because that's not really selfish. It's just me trying to orient myself to what this job might look like, once I'm on the inside. So we want to make sure that we ask a question that looks like number one, we did our homework about the company. So if the company is we'll just say it's publicly traded, then you might be able to say, Oh, I noticed that, you know, you mentioned something about how its publicly traded, or a recent achievement that this company has brought in, perhaps it's a charitable organization. So you're talking about, wow, I can see that you've done these certain things with homeless people in the area, as you talk about things that make the person understand that you actually did homework before you got there. And then the other thing that I warn people about, and I've only been warning this in recent years, because I didn't realize how it could go wrong, is never never never ask a question that the hiring manager doesn't know the answer to because that will make them look bad. And they will not like you. So in other words, I don't want to ask such a complicated question about the organization that the hiring manager goes, I don't know what our annual revenue is, you know, because now, if you've put them on the spot, nobody likes that.

Debra Alfarone:

What do you do? When you get an offer, and you don't like the money,

Denise Dudley: 

Money is a hard discussion in general. It just is, part of it is cultural. You know, I mean, in this particular culture, in the United States, we don't often talk about our salaries and what we make and those sorts of things. And so we feel a little bit self-conscious. I know many people, young people who have no idea how much money their parents make, they're just not going to tell them that or so these things are almost kind of verboten in our society to talk. And now I have to negotiate about money.

This is where internalizing our power becomes very important. The fake it till you make it? Yeah, you might have to be doing that. But I probably if I'm going to talk about my salary, and that I want more, I've got to come from a position of believing that I deserve more, of really believing that I deserve more - stopping, calming yourself down, closing your eyes, taking deep breaths, and finding my own value, figuring out, wow, I am a very valuable person. I'm smart, I'm energetic, I'm dedicated. I'm committed, I want this job. I work well with people, all the things that you can think of to allow yourself to believe that you are this person who's deserving of more.

One of the things that you do is you call up and you say, Wow, I am so excited about this job offer. I'm so excited and there's nothing I want more than to work for your company. If you have about 20 minutes, could I make an appointment to come back in and see you. I have a couple of questions and that sometimes they won't do but it's worth trying as long as you sound positive and enthusiastic. If they say no, no, I really don't have that time, what is it that I can do for you, then we always begin with the positives. We say, I love everything about this job, I can't wait to meet my colleagues, I really am excited because I love graphics arts, and I believe I'm very good at what I do. And I believe I'm going to bring some real creativity to the table of this department, I do want to let you know that I am hoping for more money, and then it doesn't hurt to say it, you're offering me $60,000. I know, given where I live, given what I need to pay for rent that I'm going to need $75,000 In order to make this work for me financially. And I believe that I'm worth that. And that if you will hire me, you will come to see that it was a valuable hire for you. Just kind of outline it so that the person goes down the road with you and understands why you're asking for it.

Debra Alfarone:

Why is it, in our 20s and sometimes 30s and 40s, we doubt?

Denise Dudley:

Our worth. I've worked with a lot of people one on one. And I of course I've talked to a lot of people in audiences and things. And sometimes I'm working with people who are, I guess I'll say famous, you know, they're famous, they're celebrity type people, or they're very accomplished people, very, very accomplished people. And yet, it seems to me like I can sometimes just when they let down their hair, so to speak, and they're talking to me, it's as if none of what they've done commands enough value inside of them to really believe they're worthwhile. I must say that I think we women are much more susceptible to this than men, a lot of women I know just really are just not good at internalizing their value. Now I'm afraid some of it is really what we've been taught, unfortunately, I think we're making progress. But wow, you know, we are still underpaid. We're still undervalued. And I think we can't help but pick up on that, as we look around us and see who's getting the jobs, who's the Senior CEO, who's you know, of the major corporations out there, every now and in fact, another way to think of it is, whenever we find out that a woman is the CEO of a major corporation, we're all talking about it. Did you know that it's this big thing, did you know aliens have landed from Mars, did you know? It's like, we shouldn't even have to talk about that as if it's remarkable, but we do.

But there was just another podcast and we were talking about something called thought stopping that when you start to say, dammit, I'm never going to be good at doing fill in the blank, that it's important to stop it, you know, stepping back up and say, I am learning to be better at this. And someday I'm going to be very good at it. And in the beginning, substituting a positive thought for that negative thing that crept in, feels fake, it does feel fake. If I say no, I am very good at whatever it is skiing or the thing that I'm very good at making a report and then presenting it to the board of directors. It may be a while before I really believe that about myself. But the more I say it, the more it will go into me again, brain-body connection. So my body is listening, my brain is listening to my thoughts and how I'm making changes. So substituting those thoughts, and then finally internalizing them until I believe them. Also making sure that we are just in general, good to ourselves, forgiving to ourselves kind to ourselves. A lot of times we're just hard on ourselves, and just a little bit of gentleness and kindness. There are some times that I'm saying something really mean to myself. And I'm thinking I would never say that out loud to another human being ever. Why am I saying it to myself?

Debra Alfarone:

I also say that I wish that someone would talk to me the way I talk to my dogs because oh yeah, the love that I give these guys is so great. All you do is sit down. It's not that hard. And I'm like you are the best thing ever. Were you this smart in your 20s What were you like in your 20s?

Denise Dudley:

Wow. So in my 20s I was very committed to studying. I when I was 18 I left home literally got on a bus the day after I graduated from high school. I got on a bus with a daypack that was everything I had. And I decided that I was going to put myself through college and I went clear through a PhD and postdoctoral fellowship and all kinds of stuff. I actually started, believe it or not, as a music major. And I was 20. So I'm not in my 20s but I started as a music major, took my first Psych 101 course and loved it so much that I just said I think I'll keep doing this. And I became the Clinical Director of a very large corporation of psychiatric hospitals. I was undoubtedly the youngest Clinical Director in California at least, certainly the only female. I was not as confident as I am now, for sure. I was not as assertive. Now I teach assertiveness training. I was not as assertive, I wish that I had known certain things about being able to say no, I wish I had known certain things about being able to not like certain people. That's a big one. You know, like, I think we're, I don't want to become negative here. But I think a lot of times we tell everybody like, oh my gosh, we just should all get along. And everybody, always everyone is sometimes just like, No, they're actually some jerks out there.

Debra Alfarone:

Yeah, we just got to not spend as much time with those jerks. How can people be assertive on a regular basis, and assert how they feel or assert what they want and set boundaries without running the risk of being a bitch or being pushy or annoying?

Denise Dudley:

First off, that women, when we assert ourselves are often called bitches, even if we are merely asserting ourselves, we don't even have to get loud or be nasty, or use swear words, or come at you really fast in your face in order for people to think we're being aggressive. So three things passive, aggressive, and assertive.

Passive, if I were to paint a thumbnail sketch of it, we're not basically getting what it is we need in life, we're allowing our rights to be violated. And talk about coming from an internal position passive people generally, if we really look at them, believe that we don't have as many rights because I don't have as good an education as you do. Because you're smarter than I am, because you're prettier than I am. Because you make more money than I do. None of those are true, obviously. But a lot of times passive people are coming from a one-down position, and they really do believe that they do not have all the rights of other people.

Aggressive people, on the other hand, believe they have more rights than other people, right? It's okay for me to step in front of you in the line at the post office. I'm busy, I'm important. And I bet you're not as important or busy as I am. It's okay for me to run roughshod over you and interrupt you when you're trying to talk. Because what I have to say is more important. Why? Because I'm bigger than you, I'm smarter than you, I have a better education, I love it. It's the same stuff being used now against humanity. So passive-aggressive, and then assertive, assertive people actually respect and protect our own rights and the rights of other people simultaneously through all of our interactions.

So as I'm interacting with you, even if I want to say no, even if I want to tell you that I don't want to go out on another date, or if I want to sell you, whatever it is, I do it, remembering that you're a human, and I'm a human, I have a right to state what I want, or what I don't want, but I must do it in a way that does not violate your human rights. So if I put that inside of myself, if I internalized that belief that we all have equal rights, then it's really not a big problem for me to tell you what I want, or what I don't want in a way that never offends you. Because I'm choosing my words carefully.

We always try to say substitute “I” language that rather than “you always do this.”  We say something like, “I become uncomfortable when you interrupt me.” So that we say it back that way. Now people if they're listening are just like, I can't do that. I just want to go. Shut up. I'm talking.” Well, I understand I get it. But working a little bit on ourselves and figuring out words that are not going to incite a riot. I always think like, you know, if I know I'm going to say something that is just going to be inflammatory and off we go into a fight. All right, well, maybe some people want to fight. I prefer to not and so I would prefer to choose my words a little bit more carefully. And to not end up in a bad scene out of a movie with my sweetheart now and we won't speak to each other or whatever. I don't want that stuff in my life.

Debra Alfarone:   

What if you do have a boss who's a jerk, but you have to deal with that character.

Denise Dudley:

Usually, if a boss is a jerk, everybody already knows it. If you've got a boss, it's not like the boss is a jerk only to you. It can happen. It can be a thing where somebody doesn't like somebody but for the most part if we all know the boss is a jerk, then we all know it, we just know it's not personal. This person is just a terrible boss.

So, making sure that I do not take it personally… I can feel like if someone's really harsh or mean to me, it can really bother me. It's not that easy for me to shake it off as much as I believe that I'm assertive and I'm valuable and everything else. Sometimes people can be mean to me and I can just feel it for an hour or two. So it's pretty natural to respond that way for people but to feel sort of uncomfortable or bad if someone's been mean to them. But the best we can do with jerks is to say, that person is truly a jerk, this has nothing to do with me.

And so I've got to make sure I build up the skills to keep that in perspective and to keep it over there. Now, if you really can talk to people, it may not work, but choosing words carefully, and being able to say things like, you know, whatever the boss's name is, you know, “I would really be so grateful if you have feedback to share with me, if you could please do it in private, rather than in front of all my co-workers,” there is nothing wrong with saying that. Well, they might say, I'm not doing that now get back out there and go to work. But you might actually get them to start thinking about things. If you can say things like, I would appreciate it if you could, or from my perspective, I would be so grateful if you could please do whatever, and then put it on yourself that this, this would help me to work really well in the department if you could do these things.

So, I would try to put it back to what the benefit is for the boss. And it might not work. The other thing that I do talk about in people's relationships, is I like to talk when I'm working, counseling people that I like to imagine our lives as a 360-degree view. Like it's you can literally turn in a circle and see your whole life. And you can even pretend I sometimes take people on a guided fantasy, and say we're going to turn in a circle. Okay, we're gonna start to turn and the first 20 degrees of that circle, that's your family. Oh, wow, you have the best family. They're so lovely. They're kind and supportive. They're beautiful. They're fun to be with. Now, let's turn a little bit farther. You live in the most beautiful area of the world. Look around you look at so you know, we know where we're going with this. Now, let's turn to this little bit. Oh, if your boss is a jerk, okay, let's keep on moving. All right. Oh, your dog, you love your dog.  In other words, we all have a 360-degree view. And I would bet that everyone listening has some little part of that where this like, yeah, okay, mean boss, mean neighbor, whatever, you know, and so we just don't focus on that for very long, it's not worth it.

Debra Alfarone: 

That boss  - looking at that 360-degree view, that's gonna be just like two degrees, that boss could be two degrees in your life. But what happens is we put it in our head, like, it's 100% of our brain power is like going towards this thing. They're living rent-free in your head.

Denise Dudley:

Exactly. Exactly. You said it exactly. We give it more value than it deserves. Yes.

Debra Alfarone:

Oh, my gosh, this is at this, I feel like this is therapy. I feel like I should be paying you. I often coach people and say, bring a little bit of your personality. That way you're not cookie cutter. You know, they want to say, “Oh, I've worked at this place for that long. And I've done this many stories. But what is it about YOU that makes you want to be a journalist, a kind of little story that you bring them into something about you.

And so I love that on your website you have five things to know about Denise. I was like, this is amazing. I think everyone should have this on their website. A couple of little things about you. I'm a dog mom, I'm crazy about dogs.

(Debra reading) “I have a ranch with a lot of rescued and adopted animals on it - chickens, goats, alpacas, horses, donkeys, cows, a dog and a whole bunch of cats.” I mean, I read that about you and I was like, ‘Oh, I know a little bit more about you.’ And so how did someone bring that? And also tell us about these animals?

Denise Dudley:

You are absolutely right about the idea of sharing something personal enough to make you into a human being not just as you say, a cookie cutter, not just another number. And that does make you more memorable. And going back to some research here. There is a lot of beautiful research on the power of storytelling. Storytelling, and knowing how to tell the story -  stories have a beginning, a middle, and an end. And we don't want our stories to be too long. We want them to be engaging. We want them to have an emotional impact. I don't want to make it sound too formulaic because we're trying to talk about being human and sharing stories. But it really is true that if I can tell a small personal story in an interview that's appropriate, that works with the interviewer that and also, by the way, in interviews, there is there's often a point at which you can do a personal story when the hiring manager says something like, ‘Tell me about a time when you were faced with a challenge that you didn't know if you could solve’ or something like that. And those are called behavioral questions. I don't know why they're called behavioral questions, but that's what they're called. And they're inspiring you to tell a story. So I always tell people in an interview have a story ready and make it an exciting story. “There I was. It was the night before the board meeting and four people came down with the flu and I was going to….’ so you bring the person in.

Debra Alfarone:

I just think the love of an animal is so beautiful. They just don't get in their own way. They don't worry. I mean, they pass every interview, don't they?

Denise Dudley:

They do. They absolutely do. They do. It's just amazing to be around them and these are all rescued animals. I have seven rescued donkeys who are hilarious. They're just hilarious. They see me, they come running, and I think they know they're rescued. I have a lot of old rescued horses who are going to just be you know, because the personnel didn't take care of them any longer. They've seemed valueless to someone. And so I have a vet, a veterinarian who comes here, obviously, and takes care of my animals. And whenever there's a horse he comes across who needs a home and his you know, isn't going to die soon, but the owners don't want him any longer or something. If he can get along with everybody else, he or she can come here so I've got, I think I've got about 11 horses, I'm not sure. I'm really not sure I know I have three alpacas right now. There used to be six. And llamas. I've been through so many different types of animals. Three goats right now who were returned into a pound. like a city pound. So of course you can't have goats at a pound, these little babies and so I took them in well, they're adults now three, three guys, three boy goats and they know me so well that they just follow me everywhere. If I go down the barnyard there, it's just it's beautiful.

Debra Alfarone:

This one question I ask everybody, this is my zinger. Tell me about your worst job, worst outfit, worst date, or worst haircut in your 20s.

Denise Dudley: 

It's as if I've waited my whole life for someone to ask me this in an interview. You're going to love this. It's show and tell right here. Right here. I have my disco outfit from the late 80s. It has pants too. I didn't bring the pants down. All in this horrible, some kind of fabric. I don't even know what it's made of. It has been in plastic. And it is a “D. J. Summers.” I think it might be a Donna Summer knockoff. I don't know. I tried to look up “DJ Summers” to see what the company was about. It doesn't exist now. I actually have my disco outfit from the late 80s. Well, I thought it was so hilarious. I never got rid of it. And so when I was going to do this interview, I dug it out of a box. And yes, this is, I have my worst outfit. And I thought it was so funny. Can you see that? It's like bizarre.

Debra Alfarone:

Yeah, it's got a very interesting sheen to it. Anyone who's listening and not watching this. Let me tell you, it's got a sheen. So wait a second, I want to dig more into this. This is how prepared you are for this interview! By the way. anyone listening to figure out how to get prepared for a job interview, you could really listen to Denise, okay, because she brought the goods. Where would you wear it? And did you think like, this is the bomb?

Denise Dudley:

I called it my Talking Heads meets Donna Summer outfit, because it has shoulder pads too. So and of course, I loved the Talking Heads. David Byrne. If David Byrne is listening to this podcast, I am in love with you. I have a huge crush on you. And so I really do want to go on a date with you David Byrne, in case he would go out with me.

Debra Alfarone:

We're going to be tagging him all over this thing for sure. Yes, David Byrne.

Denise Dudley:

Tell him that I wore the Talking Heads outfit when I would go out and that I love him.

Debra Alfarone:

Wear it!

Denise Dudley:

Oh, if you go out with me. I'll wear it.

Debra Alfarone: 

I can't tell you how lovely this has been. And I really hope that David Byrne gets back to us because that outfit, you still have it. It needs to be worn.

From Denise’s website:

Five things to know about Denise

• I spent ten years working with long-term, chronic, psychiatric populations in private and state hospitals, and I loved every minute of it.
• I absolutely love professional speaking, and I’m never happier than when I’m standing in front of an audience, having fun with them.
• I have a ranch in California, with a lot of rescued and adopted animals on it. Chickens, goats, alpacas, horses, donkeys, cows, a dog, and a whole bunch of cats. Most were taken in because they were homeless or about to be slaughtered.
• I currently work extensively with young people, teaching them communication skills, interviewing skills (for internships, scholarships, or jobs), and professional image skills—and I love doing this more than just about anything else! Young people rock.
• I’m an avid hiker, and the most fun vacation I ever took was when I hiked—literally—across England, from the Irish Sea to the North Sea.